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    http://i48.tinypic.com/30jmmxk.jpg

    Pretty Interesting way of explaining how King Crimson's powers work.  Reminds me alot like video editting.


    From what I can tell, he's only allowed to move around during the deletion period. If he touches anything during it, the action would jsut be deleted along with everything and it wouldn't happen. So he essentially has to wait until the period ends to attack. 

    The way I'm interpretting it is it's like deleting a huge folder full of a bunch of files on a slow ass computer. You'd press delete and you see the little bar slowly reaching 100%, but during that time you can't do anything with the files, you can go to the bathroom or a get a snack, but unless you press cancel, you're pretty much stuck watching the files get deleted. Does that sound like right?

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    • Well ... this power always gave me headaches. I like the explanation and I agree with what you say about Delete actions, but I also believe that you can "modify" as in the case of returning the bullets. I always thought this Stand as you skip the time for other beings (making them automatons who continue their planned actions unconsciously without reacting to external stimuli, while Diavolo can interact and change things during this period).

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    • Mmm... i've seen that image before and it's explain the ability pretty well, but i'm also with the idea of Bohemian King, that KC can "modify" the effects (i.e a bullet that would hit you, will pass trough you and the wall).

      So i have this image and i think it can explain almost everything about King Crimson ability:

      http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/443/316/292.jpg

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    • I think he may be able to shift the position of some objects, but he can't disturb their current state. So he can affect the direction of the action, but can't affect the action itself. If someone punches in T1, they need to finish that punch in T2, regardless of where it hits, which is why he can't attack during time deletion.

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    • Hmm... Will he make the cut in JJBA All Stars?

      Seems very hard to imagine how Cyber Connect will make his powers functional without making Diavolo broken or unplayable.

      The design of King Crimson is pretty badass though.

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    • I'm sure all the main antagonsits will make it in, but I'm also curious how they'll make King Crimson work. I mean obviously everyones going to get downgraded to keep the game balanced, but how would Kimg Crimson work in general, without being too much like The World. 

      I'm guessing that he'll have alot of attack cancels.

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    • Stuff will be skipped

      for example, if say Gyro uses his Ball Breaker special, King Crimson would have a ability to have it done without it hitting Diavolo.

      This would make Diavolo very dangerous to fight in-game 

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    • For me, here's how it works:

      1: the victims keep doing what they were doing before (a cat walking will keep on walking, a person who was attacking will keep trying so), but they will have no memory of the "erased time".

      2: Diavolo, viceversa, can see (and remember) everything that's going on and move freely; however, he's unable to directly interact with anything until his ability ends. Usually, this means "erase time, move behind opponent, stop ability, murder opponent who has no idea what's going on".

      Interestingly, since he IS able to move freely in the erased time, he can spill his OWN blood and spray it into his enemy's eyes to give him even more of an advantage.

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    • Zoriax wrote:
      For me, here's how it works:

      1: the victims keep doing what they were doing before (a cat walking will keep on walking, a person who was attacking will keep trying so), but they will have no memory of the "erased time".

      2: Diavolo, viceversa, can see (and remember) everything that's going on and move freely; however, he's unable to directly interact with anything until his ability ends. Usually, this means "erase time, move behind opponent, stop ability, murder opponent who has no idea what's going on".

      Interestingly, since he IS able to move freely in the erased time, he can spill his OWN blood and spray it into his enemy's eyes to give him even more of an advantage.


      I think there seems to be a contradiction.

      If Diavolo can spill his own blood on omeone's face, it remains. But if he was to attack someone, it's nullified.

      Ugh... what? If Diavolo's actions were nullified, then what's up with his blood spill?

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    • Ger Garun wrote:
      Zoriax wrote:
      For me, here's how it works:

      1: the victims keep doing what they were doing before (a cat walking will keep on walking, a person who was attacking will keep trying so), but they will have no memory of the "erased time".

      2: Diavolo, viceversa, can see (and remember) everything that's going on and move freely; however, he's unable to directly interact with anything until his ability ends. Usually, this means "erase time, move behind opponent, stop ability, murder opponent who has no idea what's going on".

      Interestingly, since he IS able to move freely in the erased time, he can spill his OWN blood and spray it into his enemy's eyes to give him even more of an advantage.


      I think there seems to be a contradiction.

      If Diavolo can spill his own blood on omeone's face, it remains. But if he was to attack someone, it's nullified.

      Ugh... what? If Diavolo's actions were nullified, then what's up with his blood spill?

      Diavolo actually threw his blood and it stopped a milimeter before interacting with Polnareff, and only took its effect when the time of erasal ended. As Zoriax said, Diavolo can't interact with things during that period, since what he sees are just projections of future time frames.

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    • The way I see it, for 10 seconds he can force a repeated loop of the previous half second of so, so everything except him is stuck without knowing it for 10 seconds. He cannot interact with them because they are essentially still performing their last actions as if uninterrupted, so unlike The World he cannot use it to set up attacks, but he can still use it to move as he is unaffected by the time where everybody else repeats their actions and oh dear I've gone cross-eyed.

      Look, KC' s abilities probably don't have any scientific or logical basis. There's no way to scientifically analyse Strengh, Khnum or a lot of other Stands, so if probably doesn't have a real explanation, or at least Araki doesn't care what it is. 

      tl:dr it still just works

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    • Too bad it still doesn't make sense because we see that events from the erased period of time still happen, such as food getting eating, people moving, etc.

      So while the time is gone the outcome remains. Bassically it should just be fancy teleportation that leaves everyone dazed for a moment... But instead he seems to  undo stuff, and moves stuff around during those points (like moving Trish off the elevator), which according to how his powers work, he can't do, because nothing happens int he time he was gone, but stuff still happens anyways... Though people don't remember it happening, because it didn't happen... but it still did...

      Right?

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    • If he's using Epitaph though, it seems he has more freedom to manipulate the outcome as long as some of its aspects are vague.

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    • Maybe Diavolo could move Trish since her genetic make-up is close enough to his. It's clear his body, and certain aspects of it like his blood, can move freely through erased time so maybe since Trish  is essentially "part-Diavolo" her body can be moved within it as well. That's the only reasoning I can come up with as to why he can directly affect her and no one else during erased time.

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    • Regarding Trish, couldnt he have just pushed/pulled her through the hatch?

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    • The way I see it, there are two big questions about KC: Can Diavolo interact with stuff during the erased time? Can stuff actually "happen" to Diavolo during the erased time?

      The answer to the first question is NO. There's a big reason Diavolo has to position himself for the kill everytime we see him during the erased time. If you look at every time something has "disappeared" or "appeared" suddenly or that something was "moved", time isn't erased, nothing else save the interacted object has suddenly moved. We can see it as KC being sufficiently fast and sneaky to be able to pull off these things, much like Star Platinum could steal stuff without being seen. Moreover, there always was an unwritten fact that Stand users are to a degree immune to their own Stands. DIO can move even when time stops, Prosciutto can toggle the aging on himself, Vanilla Ice isn't disintegrated by Cream, Josuke can't fix himself... If Diavolo can't interact with other stuff, it is reasonable to think he can still interact with himself during the erased time so he can cut himself and blind people with his blood.

      About the second question, it is important to know that what's actually shown during the erased time doesn't happen. It doesn't exist it never happened and has no consequence. However, as talented Araki is, showing something that doesn't exist is hard, so he draws everything that doesn't happen with a black background to significate their nonexistence. It's also important to know the mechanisms of Fate in JoJo. Fate is put it simply the certainty of any event happening given every past parameter, everything is at the same time already certain and uncertain. If during a coin flip, you knew every parameter, you could predict for sure if it will heads or tails. At instant T, given everything that has happened before, it is logical that Character C would do Action A1, then at instant T+1, given everything that has happened before, it is only logical that C would do Action A2. Fate takes everything into account to deduce what the universe will look like at any given time, but when time is erased, the parameters within that erased timeframe aren't taken into account even though we are shown what would have happened during the erased time. Let's remember the infamous "bullets fly through Diavolo" time erasure. At instant T time is erased and it reappears at instant T+1. Fate has calculated that given the bullets and their trajectory, they would eventually hit Risotto at T+1. However Diavolo erases time when bullets enter him and fly through him. These events didn't happen, thus at T+1, the bullets never entered Diavolo's body and never flew through him, why would he be hurt, then? However, at T+1 the bullets must have flewn, so the bullets are hitting Risotto. This raises the question of how Diavolo can do stuff during the erased time. Well again, Diavolo is an exception. He can modify the parameters within the erased time. If during the erased time, Diavolo cut himself and launched some blood, at the end of the time erasure, there would be blood in midair, launched a certain way, thus it would fly a certain way.

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    • Nabukun wrote:
      The way I see it, there are two big questions about KC: Can Diavolo interact with stuff during the erased time? Can stuff actually "happen" to Diavolo during the erased time?

      The answer to the first question is NO. There's a big reason Diavolo has to position himself for the kill everytime we see him during the erased time. If you look at every time something has "disappeared" or "appeared" suddenly or that something was "moved", time isn't erased, nothing else save the interacted object has suddenly moved. We can see it as KC being sufficiently fast and sneaky to be able to pull off these things, much like Star Platinum could steal stuff without being seen. Moreover, there always was an unwritten fact that Stand users are to a degree immune to their own Stands. DIO can move even when time stops, Prosciutto can toggle the aging on himself, Vanilla Ice isn't disintegrated by Cream, Josuke can't fix himself... If Diavolo can't interact with other stuff, it is reasonable to think he can still interact with himself during the erased time so he can cut himself and blind people with his blood.

      About the second question, it is important to know that what's actually shown during the erased time doesn't happen. It doesn't exist it never happened and has no consequence. However, as talented Araki is, showing something that doesn't exist is hard, so he draws everything that doesn't happen with a black background to significate their nonexistence. It's also important to know the mechanisms of Fate in JoJo. Fate is put it simply the certainty of any event happening given every past parameter, everything is at the same time already certain and uncertain. If during a coin flip, you knew every parameter, you could predict for sure if it will heads or tails. At instant T, given everything that has happened before, it is logical that Character C would do Action A1, then at instant T+1, given everything that has happened before, it is only logical that C would do Action A2. Fate takes everything into account to deduce what the universe will look like at any given time, but when time is erased, the parameters within that erased timeframe aren't taken into account even though we are shown what would have happened during the erased time. Let's remember the infamous "bullets fly through Diavolo" time erasure. At instant T time is erased and it reappears at instant T+1. Fate has calculated that given the bullets and their trajectory, they would eventually hit Risotto at T+1. However Diavolo erases time when bullets enter him and fly through him. These events didn't happen, thus at T+1, the bullets never entered Diavolo's body and never flew through him, why would he be hurt, then? However, at T+1 the bullets must have flewn, so the bullets are hitting Risotto. This raises the question of how Diavolo can do stuff during the erased time. Well again, Diavolo is an exception. He can modify the parameters within the erased time. If during the erased time, Diavolo cut himself and launched some blood, at the end of the time erasure, there would be blood in midair, launched a certain way, thus it would fly a certain way.


      I like the way you described it as fate. Diavolo himself has said "only the results remain". So him holding Trish would be "the result". Let's say for a second that KC broke in, Buccalati noticed, but KC moved to fast for him to do anything about, then the event of Bucacalati noticing was erased but "the result" is that Diavolo is still holding trish. Being able to remember and move within the erased time gives him more sway over that fate. I'm going with your answer because it feeds both the logical and poetic sides enough for me.

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    • The fate explanation and the "location data" explanation data at the top seem to be preety much the same thing and they both work for me, the only thing I don't get is the "What you just touched and saw... was yourself" can anyone explain what happened there?

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    • actully, I can put it simply.

      he "skips through time" like on a tv remote, where every action will have already occured, but he moves throuhg it with all those "overlapping" images. so put it like a stylized version of DIO's time stop

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    • How does "What you just touched... was your future self" work? 

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    • TheDerpynator wrote:
      How does "What you just touched... was your future self" work? 

      its like you see a VERY breif image of you when time is skipped

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    • the best explanation is to think like video editing software. Time is the play button by default and in this example Dio is a pause button where he can manipulate a single second of a scene, Kira is the skip back button where you go back a few seconds on the timeline, and Diavolo is the cut tool where he can delete moments in the time line and when you watch the video there will be a skip where he cut. I think the reason this is confusing is because manga is made up of still images instead of a video which would better demonstrate his power.

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    • sorry haven't read the manga so i have 1 question

      is it a character(s) who explain it or refer to it as time manipulation

      or is it a narrator?


      because honestly reading all the wikis about it and posts about people trying to explain it

      it sounds way more like this is all more of KC making things incorporeal than it is time manipulation

      if the power makes everything but him (and what hes holding i assume, haven't read) incorporeal then nothing interacts with anything including himself 

      things happen and actions take place but nothing affects one another until the power has ended

      people dont "remember" because they were phased out of reality not out of time 

      just because the character(s) explained it or rationalized it as "time skip" or however they phrase it, doesn't mean they are actually right does it? they are characters, they can be wrong

      it just seems way easier to understand it and explain all the actions and sequences ive heard of the power working as reality manipulation instead of time manipulation

      understanding that everyone was just incorporeal literally explains everything without any insane logic bending of skipping through and erasing time yet things still happening without consequences etc. etc.

      from everyone else's point of view the time was "erased" but from KC's point of view everything was just made incorporeal

      am i crazy and wrong ... or is this explanation atleast an UNDERSTANDABLE way to look at it whether or not it's "correct"

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    • here's my question, if diavolo's ability spanned over years, and he everything between a child's birth and their death, would that child's coffin contain a baby, a dead man, a scared and confused man, or a dead baby?

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    • Ok, easy explanation from me: diavolo erasing portion of time= he becomes "a ghost", that cannot interact with anything(actually whole universe exept Diavolo becomes "a ghost", cuz it's erased, so he cannot interact with anything, cuz it doesnt exist for that period, but i digress),he can see into the future (see erased period as a whole, thats how he positions himself within the erased time, Epitaph has this portion of KC power), and people do not remember that time period (cuz it never happened, cuz its erased). 

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    • Gerund or present participle wrote:
      here's my question, if diavolo's ability spanned over years, and he everything between a child's birth and their death, would that child's coffin contain a baby, a dead man, a scared and confused man, or a dead baby?

      dead man, i would say. But thats too crazy of the situation, cuz all people in existence would dont remember anything at all from that timeskip, this would bring humanity to pre-stone age.


      That reminds me. If Diavolo power is universal, why did Giorno and his crew, and all other people, only first notice the timeskips, when Diavolo steals Trish? Diavolo evidently used his powers before. And nobody noticed? Like, imagine, that you in the traffic, and suddently EVERYTHING jumps. That would be disastrous, only from confusion people would crush theyre cars into each other. And thats only traffic. And thats happends all over the world all the time Diavolo uses KC.


      Easy way out would be to say KC only erases time in some range, or something like that, but I don't remember it clearly stated in the manga, if this power is universal. Time stop and acceleration clearly are tho.

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    • You know when you think about it, you can assume that King Crimson works under the assumption that time is nothing but an illusion, which is created by a flow of events.

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    • The best explanation I've seen for KC is as follows:

      Diavolo "Erases" time for everyone but himself. In the erased time, he can see what everybody else will do, and what will happen after the "Erased" time ends. While in "Erased" time, he is immune to attacks, and can move around, but the second he attacks, the erased time ends. Furthermore, everyone else will carry on with what they were doing before, but will not remember what they just did. In essence, Diavolo is immune to "fate" while in erased time.

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    • actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

      It's an oversimplication which doesn't adress the details of the time erasure phenomenon and that's the latter people are usually discussing.

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    • CtrlAltSandwich wrote:
      The best explanation I've seen for KC is as follows:

      Diavolo "Erases" time for everyone but himself. In the erased time, he can see what everybody else will do, and what will happen after the "Erased" time ends. While in "Erased" time, he is immune to attacks, and can move around, but the second he attacks, the erased time ends. Furthermore, everyone else will carry on with what they were doing before, but will not remember what they just did. In essence, Diavolo is immune to "fate" while in erased time.

      Pretty much, but he does not "resumes" time, when he attacks, he waits until time "resumes" and then attacks. Look at the battle with Polnaref. Diavolo sprinkles blood at place where Polnarefs eyes will end up being and is saying something like "When time resumes my blood will end up in his eyes". If he could stop erasing time at any time by attack, why wait? And if that was the case, than in nearly 100% situations Diavolos enemy would end up dead, because at the moment KC hits you will have a hole in your chest, Polnaref  would be fucked, but that does not happends. Diavolo just sees the future, so he knows where enemy will be in the moment of time erase end, so he positions himself perfectly.

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

      this is wrong and autor admits it in the comments

      Diavolo and KC cannot interact with stuff within erased time

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    • Undrawthis wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

      this is wrong and autor admits it in the comments

      Diavolo and KC cannot interact with stuff within erased time

      like I said, imagine it with dodging and stuff.

      bassicly I would say diavlo erases his own existence in a way

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      Undrawthis wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

      this is wrong and autor admits it in the comments

      Diavolo and KC cannot interact with stuff within erased time

      like I said, imagine it with dodging and stuff.

      bassicly I would say diavlo erases his own existence in a way


      you can kinda look at his power that way

      but the opposite is true: he erases everything exept himself 

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    • Undrawthis wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      Undrawthis wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

      this is wrong and autor admits it in the comments

      Diavolo and KC cannot interact with stuff within erased time

      like I said, imagine it with dodging and stuff.

      bassicly I would say diavlo erases his own existence in a way

      you can kinda look at his power that way

      but the opposite is true: he erases everything exept himself 

      imagine it like video editing. just make something on premire. then highlight a part and delete it, thats what happens. bassicly, its dios time stop, execpt time passes normally, keeping one aspect of it: no one can see him. I would say it like he predicts the future, and if he dont like it, he gets rid of it, and sets it up so he has the advantag (its hard to put into words, what im thinking of)

      the best explanation is the waffle video, becuase remember: time passes at a normal rate.

      oh wait... I think I got it. he bassicly makes himself "outside" of these predictions, while everyone else acts as if he was there.

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      Undrawthis wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      Undrawthis wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      actully, what this entire thread took a few weeks to do, 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjIoIBap8IE

       this guy did in 37 seconds

      just imagine it with dodging and stuff like that

      its dios stopped time, without the Zero Gravity and stuff stopping where it is

      this is wrong and autor admits it in the comments

      Diavolo and KC cannot interact with stuff within erased time

      like I said, imagine it with dodging and stuff.

      bassicly I would say diavlo erases his own existence in a way

      you can kinda look at his power that way

      but the opposite is true: he erases everything exept himself 

      imagine it like video editing. just make something on premire. then highlight a part and delete it, thats what happens. bassicly, its dios time stop, execpt time passes normally, keeping one aspect of it: no one can see him. I would say it like he predicts the future, and if he dont like it, he gets rid of it, and sets it up so he has the advantag (its hard to put into words, what im thinking of)

      the best explanation is the waffle video, becuase remember: time passes at a normal rate.

      oh wait... I think I got it. he bassicly makes himself "outside" of these predictions, while everyone else acts as if he was there.

      you pretty much got it


      but people cannot perseve and remember anything from erased time, not just Diavolo


      remember when Giorno with gang was on the boat and time suddenly "jumped"


      there was cat footprints on the boat and someone had food in their mouth without remembering actually eating it

      and Polnaref was checking blood drops to know if time is "jumping" 

      but, also, within period of erased time Diavolo cannot interact with anything: bullets fly "through" him and he doesn't punch anyone, just wait's and positions himself

      in comparison to Dio

      Dio's time stop stops everything exept Dio for few seconds

      Diavolo's time erase eresing everything exept Diavolo for few seconds

      actually, The World and King Crimson do kinda opposite thing: Dio creates additional time and Diavolo erases existing time

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    • No description thus far addresses what are seen as the true problems or contradictions. Most people when introduced to king crimson got the basic idea, but these issues confuse the matter and explaining one or two usually leads to contradiction with the others. Those events I can remember are 1. The fact he positions himself rather than attacks implies he cannot attack in erased time. 2. Trish was grabbed from the elevator in erased time. 3. The bullets passed through diavolo. 4. Bars were bent and Narancia in Giorno's body was skewered atop them all during erased time. No rationalisation or metaphor for how it works has explained all these issues at once in this thread thusfar

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    • My best guess is that "Is Diavolo able to do it without erasing time? If not, he can't manually interact with something in erased time."

      He could've barged into the elevator and kidnapped Trish without needing to erase time, albeit Bucciarati might have attacked him immediately afterward. If he could not and Bucciarati is able to intercept him in time, then he couldn't touch Trish.

      He could've killed Narancia and broke the bars needed to impale him without needing to erase time. If he could not without being intercepted or end up with Narancia defending himself, then he couldn't touch Narancia within the erased time.

      Could he have dodged a punch from a Power-type Stand? Seems unlikely, so he erases time and protects himself from being punched, but cannot hit his attacker.

      If Diavolo is in the middle of being attacked and therefore can't attack back, then an attack from him would not be put into effect within erased time.

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